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14:58 < michela_RIPENCC> Hi everyone, I'm Michela from the RIPE NCC. If you have questions/comments for the presenter and want me to read it out, please state your name/affiliation and I'll go to the mic when questions are called for. Keep in mind that there is up to a 30 second delay for remote participants, so it's better to get your questions in before the question period begins.
15:01 < denesh> hi all
15:01 < michela_RIPENCC> Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on https://ripe73.ripe.net/
15:02 < michela_RIPENCC> Gregory Mounier, has begun the presentation "WHOIS Accuracy and Public Safety".
15:10 < brian-1213> Soon to be 27...
15:10 < dnshane> Yes, that will simplify things for law enforcement. :-/
15:11 < rhe-786> Don't worry, it's all about taking back control.
15:11 < rhe-786> Apparently.
15:12 < rhe-786> In the fully independent UK it will be a corporal offence not to have the data in the RIPE DB up-to-date.
15:13 < brian-1213> 🙂
15:14 < dnshane> Source of the problem: cut & paste SQL from Stack overflow...
15:15 < GPF> The IP address if fabricated right?
15:16 < irldexter> whois -h whois.cymru.com " -v 95.168.177.1"
15:17 < irldexter> but actual whois is live...
15:17 < GPF> that address is routed
15:18 < GPF> to an ISP in Hungary
15:18 < GPF> erm Croatia
15:19 < dnshane> It's actually awesome that all these tools are available.
15:19 < GPF> Yeah.. I don't know. Streetview in my area is widly out of date
15:19 < GPF> wildly
15:20 < jzp> IMO it is awesome that the cops are using mostly the same tools I do when hunting abuse
15:20 < Aziraphale> but none of this has any evidentiary value
15:21 < Aziraphale> and is not meant to, more importantly
15:21 < dnshane> Well, from the LEA point of view that's the problem statement. 😉
15:22 < michela_RIPENCC> Gregory Mounier has asked for questions.
15:23 < GPF> How rude is that! >:(
15:24 < Aziraphale> it is ALREADY required to register sub-allocs
15:24 < dnshane> Interesting point.... if the companies are registered elsewhere.
15:25 < Aziraphale> but no SP has the resources to query down the chain of companies.
15:25 < dnshane> SP?
15:25 < dnshane> What is that?
15:25 < Aziraphale> service provider
15:25 < dnshane> Ah. Right.
15:26 < Aziraphale> you have a name, a company and somewhere to send the bill
15:27 < Aziraphale> and, tbf, if the cops want a database of every IP address and where it is, they can damn well do the work themselves
15:28 < Aziraphale> ask GHCQ, they probably have the data
15:28 < michela_RIPENCC> please, let me know if you want me to read out anything 🙂
15:28 < michela_RIPENCC> but I need your name/affiliation
15:29 < Aziraphale> not me
15:29 < Aziraphale> just checked the T&Cs and they don't specifically forbid that
15:29 < Aziraphale> just marketing is
15:30 < eising-2603> I believe it would be comparable to searching the whois database for abuse information
15:30 < eising-2603> maybe not exactly comparable, but in the same league
15:30 < Aziraphale> besides, they can always get a court order for this access
15:30 < rhe-786> Article 3 of the T&C says Providing information about the Registrant and Maintainer of Internet number resources when the resources are suspected of being used for unlawful activities, to parties who are authorised under the law to receive such information.
15:32 < Aziraphale> yes it does
15:32 < Aziraphale> but it has limits
15:33 < michela_RIPENCC> Leslie Carr, has begun the presentation “Show Me the Money (a panel on the unique financial challenges of smaller IXPs)”.
15:34 < Aziraphale> humtastic
15:36 < Aziraphale> does everyone else hear a 50Hz hum or is that just me?
15:36 < eising-2603> I hear it too
15:37 < Aziraphale> better now. still there but better
15:44 < michela_RIPENCC> Leslie has asked for questions
15:48 < dnshane> I was also curious about the SFOIX answers. 🙂
15:57 < jzp> lost stream in side room
15:58 < andi-> yep gone :/
15:58 < irldexter> lost audio in plenary and image frozen
15:58 < irldexter> pls send more packets...
15:58 < irldexter> 🙂
15:58 < andi-> reloading did fix it for me...
15:58 < dnshane> 1000111100110
15:58 < marita_RIPENCC> Yes, reloading works
15:59 < jelte> perhaps there is a budget shortage at an ixp, and it can't send through the stream anymore
15:59 < irldexter> ack, on reloading... video + audio working..
15:59 < irldexter> funnily the Transcript continued...
16:00 < jzp> stream back in side room
16:00 < irldexter> Question: should university students try to build their own uni to uni IXPs?
16:00 < michela_RIPENCC> do you want me to read out?
16:00 < irldexter> yes please
16:01 < dnshane> Name and affiliation?
16:01 < irldexter> Donal O Duibhir, Podomere.com
16:01 < irldexter> iNOG also
16:01 < rhe-786> irldexter: Are they not called NRENs? 🙂
16:01 < irldexter> Ireland Network Operator Group
16:01 < irldexter> student led
16:01 < brian-1213> irldexter: I know I'm biased, but no. 🙂
16:02 < irldexter> Donal
16:02 < marita_RIPENCC> hehe
16:02 < marita_RIPENCC> (sorry, I'm Irish as well, I liked the pronunciation) 🙂
16:02 < irldexter> thank you
16:02 < michela_RIPENCC> you are welcome 🙂
16:03 < michela_RIPENCC> sorry about my pronunciation 🙂
16:03 < rhe-786> Intentional decision of the PC to have multiple chairs on stage for this presentation?
16:03 < brian-1213> Ha!
16:03 < irldexter> I ask as we have a use case here in Ireland for helping CompSci and NetSoc to learn networking as Uni networking courses are normally very weak
16:03 < michela_RIPENCC> Hans Petter Holen, has begun the presentation “RIPE Chair Selection Procedure”
16:03 < dnshane> 😀
16:03 < irldexter> no worries on pronounciation.. 🙂 Thank you..
16:03 < brian-1213> irldexter: But seriously, they have a network between them, we're pretty sure of that. 🙂
16:04 < irldexter> Ack brian I know but they don't own or operate...
16:04 < irldexter> 🙂
16:04 < irldexter> HeaNet here etc
16:04 < ww> irldexter: there is actually something to that -- though i wouldn't phrase it that way. there are very, very few operational environments that can be used for education. and universities generally fail to teach networking well.
16:04 < irldexter> ++ WW
16:04 < irldexter> exactly
16:04 < brian-1213> Well, no. I mean, I love their opportunities to build networks within their institutions, but I can't see any advantage out of a separate IX.
16:05 < brian-1213> Also, HEAnet. :p
16:05 < irldexter> sandbox...
16:05 < ww> furthermore, the research networks are commoditised to the point of not being useable for research *about* the network
16:05 < irldexter> think Freifunk
16:05 < rhe-786> irldexter: I do see your point and NRENs have a push for stability that limits how they can be used as a tool for teaching.
16:05 * ww waves to rhe-786 from edinburgh (60241)
16:06 < rhe-786> We've built testbeds in the past (we currently have a wide area SDN testbed in the UK), but they tend to be poorly used.
16:06 < rhe-786> ...and they aren't carrying production traffic. 🙂
16:06 < brian-1213> Unfortunately (also fortunately) yeah, we can't play with the network as much any more. I've spoken about this a few times in places. But I can't see how it would be anything other than a sandbox unless someone can pay for something, for a start. I would love to see how we can improve the learning opportunities for students, always.
16:07 < ww> rhe-786: they need to be real. carry production traffic but with a caveat that they are experimental and may break
16:07 < ww> an artifical sandbox is too artificial to be useful
16:07 < brian-1213> The LANs do carry production traffic for their users, mind.
16:07 < rhe-786> ww: But as the sector outsources a lot to "someone else's computer" when there is disruption, work stops.
16:08 < irldexter> the idea comes from seeing IXPs and also Freifunk bootstrapping backbones: https://youtu.be/ugqblh-rlGI?t=58m5s
16:08 < dnshane> Hey, he only read my mail!
16:08 < dnshane> 😀
16:09 < irldexter> This is from https://inog.net meetings...
16:09 < irldexter> and recently we sat down with many of the CompSci/NetSoc in Ireland
16:09 < ww> rhe-786: so we'e been successful by doing this sort of thing in places where there's no choice anyways, and something without strong guarantees is better than 512kbps dsl
16:09 < michela_RIPENCC> Hans Petter Holen has asked for suggestions/comments
16:10 < irldexter> they have no hands-on in some, no kit in others, and sub-par networking/DC on syllabus...
16:11 < brian-1213> Sadly very aware of that.
16:11 < ww> irldexter: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2940162
16:12 < brian-1213> But I would love to discuss some of this with you (and the students of course) further.
16:12 < ww> not mentioned in there, but we also use it (and member networks) for teaching...
16:13 < ww> indeed a complete environment: transit provider, access various networks, datacentre, exchange point...
16:13 < irldexter> ww: thank you..
16:13 < ww> a pleasure 🙂
16:23 < sjms> next level of indirection: how to (s)elect nomcom 🙂
16:24 < irldexter> ww: scanning, this is awesome, will share with our new uNOG group... might be a fun pattern to begin a project!!
16:24 < jzp> all problems in computer science are solved with encapsulation and abstrations, sjms 🙂
16:27 < sjms> and levels of indirection 🙂
16:27 < sjms> (6) It is easier to move a problem around (for example, by moving
16:27 < sjms> the problem to a different part of the overall network
16:27 < sjms> architecture) than it is to solve it.
16:27 < sjms>
16:27 < sjms> (6a) (corollary). It is always possible to add another level of
16:27 < sjms> indirection.
16:32 < michela_RIPENCC> the session has ended